Discussion:
Chinese still thieves regarding technology
(too old to reply)
a***@airmail.net
2003-09-18 10:04:11 UTC
Permalink
Gee, no wonder it's cheaper for the Chinese to do such things, they
just steal.
Quote from the Scientific American article.

The Chinese needed a suit with similar functions, so after obtaining
samples of the Sokol design they copied it exactly, right down to the
stitching and color scheme.

Note, not they licensed it, they subcontracted it, they just stole it.
Mark Simpson
2003-09-18 16:54:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by a***@airmail.net
Gee, no wonder it's cheaper for the Chinese to do such things, they
just steal.
Quote from the Scientific American article.
The Chinese needed a suit with similar functions, so after obtaining
samples of the Sokol design they copied it exactly, right down to the
stitching and color scheme.
Note, not they licensed it, they subcontracted it, they just stole it.
And that surprises you? Most businesses know this and act
accordingly. If you're smart, you don't sell cutting edge technology
to the ChiComs.

Mark Simpson
NAR 71503 Level II
God Bless our peacekeepers
Chuck Rudy
2003-09-24 12:01:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark Simpson
Post by a***@airmail.net
Gee, no wonder it's cheaper for the Chinese to do such things, they
just steal.
Quote from the Scientific American article.
The Chinese needed a suit with similar functions, so after obtaining
samples of the Sokol design they copied it exactly, right down to the
stitching and color scheme.
Note, not they licensed it, they subcontracted it, they just stole it.
And that surprises you? Most businesses know this and act
accordingly. If you're smart, you don't sell cutting edge technology
to the ChiComs.
Mark Simpson
NAR 71503 Level II
God Bless our peacekeepers
If one researches the beginnings of the Japanese auto industry you will
find they imported quite a few American and European cars and began
their trek by disassembling, blueprinting, building and selling exact
knockoffs of the automobiles which they were copying. They learned from
the finished products of the industry. However by starting from scratch
manufacturing-wise, they were not tied to older auto manufacturing
ideas, contracts, lifestyle and heierarchy. They were able to inject
fresh new ideas into manufacturing (robotics, from the bottom engine
installs...) which gave them an advantage whey their quality caught up.

The similarity to the Chinese situation should be obvious, it is much
easier to copy (and possibly reverse engineer) than to start from
scratch. The difference so far is the Chinese are building copies, but
the quality is nowhere near the same, nor can it be, the lower wage must
be offset by the logistics and cost of shipping from a world away. With
regard to tools I look for one of two things, 'Made in USA' or 'Made in
Germany'.......little else matters.......

I'm still wondering why GM discarded the Wankel engine, though, seemed
brilliant to me. And it does very well on the world's racing
stage......maybe some USA corporations can't see through to the future
with all those R&D bills staring them in the face.

Chuck
--
Chuck Rudy

VooDoo Digital Productions

http://homepage.mac.com/wesrudy
Jerry Irvine
2003-09-24 13:43:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chuck Rudy
I'm still wondering why GM discarded the Wankel engine, though, seemed
brilliant to me. And it does very well on the world's racing
stage......maybe some USA corporations can't see through to the future
with all those R&D bills staring them in the face.
Chuck
Largely because the engine has so much throughput it also produces more
smog than other engines. At least that is what the Mazda regional
director told me when I ordered and did ot receive my rotary truck for
hauling boats. The older rotary truck is whoarded around here by boat
dealers. You can't easily buy one on the market as a result.

The powerband is sweet, the power to weight ratio even sweeter. Have
you ever heard one uncorked? You can literally hear it well 10 miles
away.

So chalk it up to smog equipment and not enough wankel research on
pollution control. The newest 13B equivelent RX8 seems to have overcome
that :)

Jerry
--
Jerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA
Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to:***@gte.net>
Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration.
Produce then publish. http://www.usrockets.com
My articles valuable? Donate at iKobo.com c/o my email.
Jerry Irvine
2003-09-24 16:27:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jerry Irvine
Post by Chuck Rudy
I'm still wondering why GM discarded the Wankel engine,
The powerband is sweet, the power to weight ratio even sweeter. Have
you ever heard one uncorked? You can literally hear it well 10 miles
away.
Jerry
I was riding shotgun when an up and coming SCCA road racer was having a
little fun on one of our great property boundary roads (90 degree right
angle turns, and some having healthy banking) when he downshifted,
nailed the throttle and turned into oversteer, the little buzzer went
off on the dashboard.....I was waiting for parts to come through the
hood, but he kept cranking it all the way up the road and the little
buzzer went off every turn. Sweet!
Chuck
You know you have the right engine when your buzzer is set for 8000 rpm
and it is used as an indication of powerband center :)

Jerry
--
Jerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA
Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to:***@gte.net>
Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration.
Produce then publish. http://www.usrockets.com
My articles valuable? Donate at iKobo.com c/o my email.
Mark Simpson
2003-09-24 13:35:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jerry Irvine
You know you have the right engine when your buzzer is set for 8000 rpm
and it is used as an indication of powerband center :)
IIRC, My Suzuki RM124 makes power to 14k. ;-)

Mark Simpson
NAR 71503 Level II
God Bless our peacekeeper
Bob Kaplow
2003-09-24 18:01:58 UTC
Permalink
In article <***@tradenet.nospam.net>, Chuck Rudy <***@tradenet.nospam.net> writes:

***PLEASE*** Turn off your HTML!
Post by Chuck Rudy
If one researches the beginnings of the Japanese auto industry you will
find they imported quite a few American and European cars and began
their trek by disassembling, blueprinting, building and selling exact
knockoffs of the automobiles which they were copying. They learned from
the finished products of the industry. However by starting from scratch
manufacturing-wise, they were not tied to older auto manufacturing
ideas, contracts, lifestyle and heierarchy. They were able to inject
fresh new ideas into manufacturing (robotics, from the bottom engine
installs...) which gave them an advantage whey their quality caught up.
Which brings up an interesting question. Of all thethings they could have
copied, why did Yugo copy a piece of crap FIAT?

Reminds me of a student my wife once had in an english class. In the back of
the book were 3 sample research papers: one an A, one a C and one an F. Not
only did a student plagerize right from the class textbook, but they copied
the F paper...
Post by Chuck Rudy
The similarity to the Chinese situation should be obvious, it is much
easier to copy (and possibly reverse engineer) than to start from
scratch. The difference so far is the Chinese are building copies, but
the quality is nowhere near the same, nor can it be, the lower wage must
be offset by the logistics and cost of shipping from a world away. With
regard to tools I look for one of two things, 'Made in USA' or 'Made in
Germany'.......little else matters.......
I'd take made in Sweden, Austria, Canada, or a few other places. Some of the
finest chisels come from England. Even the stainless medical instruments
from Pakistan are pretty good. It's hard to find a scalpel, hemostat, etc.
from any where else.
Post by Chuck Rudy
I'm still wondering why GM discarded the Wankel engine, though, seemed
brilliant to me. And it does very well on the world's racing
stage......maybe some USA corporations can't see through to the future
with all those R&D bills staring them in the face.
What ever happened to Kyocera and their ceramic engines that didn't need
cooling?

Bob Kaplow NAR # 18L TRA # "Impeach the TRA BoD"
Post by Chuck Rudy
To reply, remove the TRABoD! <<<
Kaplow Klips & Baffle: http://nira-rocketry.org/LeadingEdge/Phantom4000.pdf
www.encompasserve.org/~kaplow_r/ www.nira-rocketry.org www.nar.org

Save Model Rocketry from the HSA! http://www.space-rockets.com/congress.html
Jerry Irvine
2003-09-24 18:28:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bob Kaplow
***PLEASE*** Turn off your HTML!
Post by Chuck Rudy
If one researches the beginnings of the Japanese auto industry you will
find they imported quite a few American and European cars and began
their trek by disassembling, blueprinting, building and selling exact
knockoffs of the automobiles which they were copying. They learned from
the finished products of the industry. However by starting from scratch
manufacturing-wise, they were not tied to older auto manufacturing
ideas, contracts, lifestyle and heierarchy. They were able to inject
fresh new ideas into manufacturing (robotics, from the bottom engine
installs...) which gave them an advantage whey their quality caught up.
Which brings up an interesting question. Of all thethings they could have
copied, why did Yugo copy a piece of crap FIAT?
There's no accounting for intelligence :)
Post by Bob Kaplow
Reminds me of a student my wife once had in an english class. In the back of
the book were 3 sample research papers: one an A, one a C and one an F. Not
only did a student plagerize right from the class textbook, but they copied
the F paper...
--
Jerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA
Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to:***@gte.net>
Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration.
Produce then publish. http://www.usrockets.com
My articles valuable? Donate at iKobo.com c/o my email.
Chuck Rudy
2003-09-24 21:32:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bob Kaplow
***PLEASE*** Turn off your HTML!
OK, but just this once! :-)
Post by Bob Kaplow
Which brings up an interesting question. Of all thethings they could have
copied, why did Yugo copy a piece of crap FIAT?
They liked the name....Fix It Again Tony!
--
Chuck Rudy

VooDoo Digital Productions

http://homepage.mac.com/wesrudy
Tim
2003-09-25 00:53:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bob Kaplow
What ever happened to Kyocera and their ceramic engines that didn't need
cooling?
They were converted to photocopiers... :)
Phil Stein
2003-09-19 02:02:20 UTC
Permalink
And this surprises you?

AT least you can take solice in the probability that it's a lousy copy
& won't work right.

Phil Stein
Post by a***@airmail.net
Gee, no wonder it's cheaper for the Chinese to do such things, they
just steal.
Quote from the Scientific American article.
The Chinese needed a suit with similar functions, so after obtaining
samples of the Sokol design they copied it exactly, right down to the
stitching and color scheme.
Note, not they licensed it, they subcontracted it, they just stole it.
Phil Stein
Thomas R. Henderson
2003-09-19 02:08:18 UTC
Permalink
Sounds like the "made in Japan" attitude back in the '60's. Look what they
went on to do. Never underestimate the competition.
Tom Henderson
Post by Phil Stein
And this surprises you?
AT least you can take solice in the probability that it's a lousy copy
& won't work right.
Phil Stein
a***@airmail.net
2003-09-19 11:38:44 UTC
Permalink
Not underestimating them, just pointing out they have minimal ethics,
and they should be treated accordingly as large scale commercial
thieves .

On Thu, 18 Sep 2003 22:08:18 -0400, "Thomas R. Henderson"
Post by Thomas R. Henderson
Sounds like the "made in Japan" attitude back in the '60's. Look what they
went on to do. Never underestimate the competition.
Tom Henderson
Phil Stein
2003-09-19 18:13:57 UTC
Permalink
No underestimating - just fact. I have no doubt that they'll get it
right some day but, we live in the present.

They aren't the only ones to do it. As long as the US continues to
create leading edge technologies built to a high standard of quality,
we're a step beyond the competition.

Phil Stein


On Thu, 18 Sep 2003 22:08:18 -0400, "Thomas R. Henderson"
Post by Thomas R. Henderson
Sounds like the "made in Japan" attitude back in the '60's. Look what they
went on to do. Never underestimate the competition.
Tom Henderson
Post by Phil Stein
And this surprises you?
AT least you can take solice in the probability that it's a lousy copy
& won't work right.
Phil Stein
Phil Stein
andyP
2003-09-21 01:31:03 UTC
Permalink
I didn't catch the beginning of the thread but this is sought of like my
Acura (Japanese) that has hmmm 250,000 miles and keeps running without a
hiccup as opposed to other garbage "made in the USA".......

Ironically, most individuals will make a statement that the Japanese build
things to a higher standard as though we could if we tried. Just like the
kid that sits out of a ball game insistent that he can do better if he
tried...
Post by Phil Stein
And this surprises you?
AT least you can take solice in the probability that it's a lousy copy
& won't work right.
Phil Stein
Post by a***@airmail.net
Gee, no wonder it's cheaper for the Chinese to do such things, they
just steal.
Quote from the Scientific American article.
The Chinese needed a suit with similar functions, so after obtaining
samples of the Sokol design they copied it exactly, right down to the
stitching and color scheme.
Note, not they licensed it, they subcontracted it, they just stole it.
Phil Stein
Jerry Irvine
2003-09-21 02:03:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by andyP
I didn't catch the beginning of the thread but this is sought of like my
Acura (Japanese) that has hmmm 250,000 miles and keeps running without a
hiccup as opposed to other garbage "made in the USA".......
The design to fail philosophy wins the stock market race and here in the
USA that is ALL that matters. The SEC sees to that. The FED tries to
kill it though, and succeeds, masterfully.

Jerry

Crap cars AND low stock prices and pension values. The new American
way. Thanks Bill.
--
Jerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA
Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to:***@gte.net>
Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration.
Produce then publish. http://www.usrockets.com
My articles valuable? Donate at iKobo.com c/o my email.
Reece Talley
2003-09-21 04:22:41 UTC
Permalink
I can't speak for everything ChiCom but, this I do know. The damn ChiComs
have some of the sloppiest manufacturing standards I've ever seen. Harbor
Freight is full of their crap. Power saws, drills wrenches..all of it
sloppy, weak and prone to early failure. Wentzel had the ChiComs knock off a
Petromax lantern. The original for those of you who don't know, is about the
same size as a Coleman but is considerably more powerful. It puts out about
the equivalent of a 500 watt incandescent bulb and will burn any fuel you
can stuff in it including olive oil and liquid Crisco. The Chinese knock off
runs only on 1K kerosene and even then, not very well. The valves fit
poorly, the tank is cheap steel instead of brass and the nickel finish is
thin thin thin! Shoot, even the Pakies did a better knock off with their
version. Dang, even fireworks aren't what they used to be.
--
R. J. Talley
Teacher/James Madison Fellow
NAR #69594
NRA #133073736
Post by Jerry Irvine
Post by andyP
I didn't catch the beginning of the thread but this is sought of like my
Acura (Japanese) that has hmmm 250,000 miles and keeps running without a
hiccup as opposed to other garbage "made in the USA".......
The design to fail philosophy wins the stock market race and here in the
USA that is ALL that matters. The SEC sees to that. The FED tries to
kill it though, and succeeds, masterfully.
Jerry
Crap cars AND low stock prices and pension values. The new American
way. Thanks Bill.
--
Jerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA
Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration.
Produce then publish. http://www.usrockets.com
My articles valuable? Donate at iKobo.com c/o my email.
BB
2003-09-21 14:03:48 UTC
Permalink
Bringing this back on-topic, I hope that anyone out there thinking about
buying a Campbell - Hausfeld air compressor for airbrushing work will think
twice before doing so. I picked up one of these little $99 babies at Wal Mart
thinking I couldn't go wrong. After 18 months of VERY LIGHT use (12 month
warrantee, natch) it stopped compressing beyond about 40 PSI or so, so being
the curious type I am, I took her apart to have a looksee. The oilless piston ring
had turned to black dust and this dust had gotten beneath the read valve, preventing
it from sealing properly. Moreover, the components themselves (piston, sleeve,
etc.) looked like they had been machined by cavemen with sharp rocks. Because
of the worn piston ring, the piston and sleeve had become scored beyond hope.

To compound this, C-H doesn't SELL individual repair parts, you have to buy the
whole damned pump assembly. Cost? about $75, including shipping. For a
$99 compressor.

C-H can bite my shiny metal ass, before I buy another piece of sh*t from them.
Post by Reece Talley
I can't speak for everything ChiCom but, this I do know. The damn ChiComs
have some of the sloppiest manufacturing standards I've ever seen. Harbor
Freight is full of their crap. Power saws, drills wrenches..all of it
sloppy, weak and prone to early failure. Wentzel had the ChiComs knock off a
Petromax lantern. The original for those of you who don't know, is about the
same size as a Coleman but is considerably more powerful. It puts out about
the equivalent of a 500 watt incandescent bulb and will burn any fuel you
can stuff in it including olive oil and liquid Crisco. The Chinese knock off
runs only on 1K kerosene and even then, not very well. The valves fit
poorly, the tank is cheap steel instead of brass and the nickel finish is
thin thin thin! Shoot, even the Pakies did a better knock off with their
version. Dang, even fireworks aren't what they used to be.
Jerry Irvine
2003-09-21 14:56:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by BB
C-H can bite my shiny metal ass, before I buy another piece of sh*t from them.
Nice to see you are just as polite as ever BB :)
--
Jerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA
Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to:***@gte.net>
Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration.
Produce then publish. http://www.usrockets.com
My articles valuable? Donate at iKobo.com c/o my email.
tim
2003-09-21 16:08:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by BB
C-H can bite my shiny metal ass, before I buy another piece of sh*t from them.
DeVilbiss makes compressors here in TN. Give them a try. My oilless
compressor is still going strong. I painted my father's barn with it
this summer, so it had to do some serious work. It's just a 5 hp, 20
gallon unit, but it fills fast and is reliable.

Mark has probably seen a few of their paint nozzles in Detroit. They do
make cheap paint guns for the general public, but they also make top end
specialized paint nozzles for computerized paint lines up there.

tim
andyP
2003-09-23 03:51:03 UTC
Permalink
True much different places. You know the really ironic thing is that it is
the US that sends this work overseas to start with and the public that
continues to support the practice by supporting companies that do it. Oh it
is pointless to even take objection to it at this point because most
companies are doing it. Saves money, eh?

We are a pathetic nation as a whole that has sold out our own future for a
few bucks.... Ask the growing unemployed and I am sure they will agree.
Hate to bust your bubble but China & Japan are two different places.
Phil
Post by andyP
I didn't catch the beginning of the thread but this is sought of like my
Acura (Japanese) that has hmmm 250,000 miles and keeps running without a
hiccup as opposed to other garbage "made in the USA".......
Ironically, most individuals will make a statement that the Japanese build
things to a higher standard as though we could if we tried. Just like the
kid that sits out of a ball game insistent that he can do better if he
tried...
Post by Phil Stein
And this surprises you?
AT least you can take solice in the probability that it's a lousy copy
& won't work right.
Phil Stein
Post by a***@airmail.net
Gee, no wonder it's cheaper for the Chinese to do such things, they
just steal.
Quote from the Scientific American article.
The Chinese needed a suit with similar functions, so after obtaining
samples of the Sokol design they copied it exactly, right down to the
stitching and color scheme.
Note, not they licensed it, they subcontracted it, they just stole it.
Phil Stein
Phil Stein
Joel Corwith
2003-09-23 04:17:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by andyP
True much different places. You know the really ironic thing is that it is
the US that sends this work overseas to start with and the public that
continues to support the practice by supporting companies that do it. Oh it
is pointless to even take objection to it at this point because most
companies are doing it. Saves money, eh?
We are a pathetic nation as a whole that has sold out our own future for a
few bucks.... Ask the growing unemployed and I am sure they will agree.
Unemployment is going down. Of course they track unemployment by the number
of claims filed, and if you've exceeded your benefit, you don't get to file
a claim,...

Joel. phx Outsourced to Brazil

Sitting in the hot tub of a $380/night hotel (priceline $93/night) on
Coronado Island and the guy across from me is visiting Mexico to see about
opening a plant there. I kept wondering how much longer they'd be needing
'him'.
Post by andyP
Hate to bust your bubble but China & Japan are two different places.
Phil
Post by andyP
I didn't catch the beginning of the thread but this is sought of like my
Acura (Japanese) that has hmmm 250,000 miles and keeps running without a
hiccup as opposed to other garbage "made in the USA".......
Ironically, most individuals will make a statement that the Japanese
build
Post by andyP
things to a higher standard as though we could if we tried. Just like
the
Post by andyP
kid that sits out of a ball game insistent that he can do better if he
tried...
Post by Phil Stein
And this surprises you?
AT least you can take solice in the probability that it's a lousy copy
& won't work right.
Phil Stein
Post by a***@airmail.net
Gee, no wonder it's cheaper for the Chinese to do such things, they
just steal.
Quote from the Scientific American article.
The Chinese needed a suit with similar functions, so after obtaining
samples of the Sokol design they copied it exactly, right down to the
stitching and color scheme.
Note, not they licensed it, they subcontracted it, they just stole it.
Phil Stein
Phil Stein
andyP
2003-09-23 10:30:12 UTC
Permalink
The whole thing is like the guy that starts tearing up his fence for fire
wood, then his floor, etc. How much before the house (US workforce) caves
in. I have been an independent for 3 years now since the bottom crunched in
the IT market. How many computer jobs to India? I live near Fisher Price
Toys. All they are is a bunch of customer service people on the phone....
manufacturing went over to China... As long as the people that control the
money keep their jobs (and control the media) I don't think the truth about
the impact of the practice of outsourcing will ever get out.
Post by Joel Corwith
Post by andyP
True much different places. You know the really ironic thing is that it
is
Post by andyP
the US that sends this work overseas to start with and the public that
continues to support the practice by supporting companies that do it.
Oh
Post by Joel Corwith
it
Post by andyP
is pointless to even take objection to it at this point because most
companies are doing it. Saves money, eh?
We are a pathetic nation as a whole that has sold out our own future for a
few bucks.... Ask the growing unemployed and I am sure they will agree.
Unemployment is going down. Of course they track unemployment by the number
of claims filed, and if you've exceeded your benefit, you don't get to file
a claim,...
Joel. phx Outsourced to Brazil
Sitting in the hot tub of a $380/night hotel (priceline $93/night) on
Coronado Island and the guy across from me is visiting Mexico to see about
opening a plant there. I kept wondering how much longer they'd be needing
'him'.
Post by andyP
Hate to bust your bubble but China & Japan are two different places.
Phil
Post by andyP
I didn't catch the beginning of the thread but this is sought of like
my
Post by andyP
Post by andyP
Acura (Japanese) that has hmmm 250,000 miles and keeps running
without
Post by Joel Corwith
a
Post by andyP
Post by andyP
hiccup as opposed to other garbage "made in the USA".......
Ironically, most individuals will make a statement that the Japanese
build
Post by andyP
things to a higher standard as though we could if we tried. Just like
the
Post by andyP
kid that sits out of a ball game insistent that he can do better if he
tried...
Post by Phil Stein
And this surprises you?
AT least you can take solice in the probability that it's a lousy
copy
Post by andyP
Post by andyP
Post by Phil Stein
& won't work right.
Phil Stein
Post by a***@airmail.net
Gee, no wonder it's cheaper for the Chinese to do such things, they
just steal.
Quote from the Scientific American article.
The Chinese needed a suit with similar functions, so after obtaining
samples of the Sokol design they copied it exactly, right down to
the
Post by andyP
Post by andyP
Post by Phil Stein
Post by a***@airmail.net
stitching and color scheme.
Note, not they licensed it, they subcontracted it, they just stole
it.
Post by andyP
Post by andyP
Post by Phil Stein
Phil Stein
Phil Stein
Jerry Irvine
2003-09-23 14:32:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by andyP
The whole thing is like the guy that starts tearing up his fence for fire
wood, then his floor, etc. How much before the house (US workforce) caves
in. I have been an independent for 3 years now since the bottom crunched in
the IT market. How many computer jobs to India? I live near Fisher Price
Toys. All they are is a bunch of customer service people on the phone....
manufacturing went over to China... As long as the people that control the
money keep their jobs (and control the media) I don't think the truth about
the impact of the practice of outsourcing will ever get out.
I agree but the internet IS alternate media. Start a web page with a
hard news position.

Jerry
--
Jerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA
Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to:***@gte.net>
Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration.
Produce then publish. http://www.usrockets.com
My articles valuable? Donate at iKobo.com c/o my email.
Mark Simpson
2003-09-25 02:11:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by andyP
The whole thing is like the guy that starts tearing up his fence for fire
wood, then his floor, etc. How much before the house (US workforce) caves
in. I have been an independent for 3 years now since the bottom crunched in
the IT market. How many computer jobs to India? I live near Fisher Price
Toys. All they are is a bunch of customer service people on the phone....
manufacturing went over to China... As long as the people that control the
money keep their jobs (and control the media) I don't think the truth about
the impact of the practice of outsourcing will ever get out.
Between repressive labor laws and collective bargaining that inflates
wages for simple tasks, I'm surprised that more industry hasn't gone
off-shore.

Mark Simpson
NAR 71503 Level II
God Bless our peacekeepers
Jerry Irvine
2003-09-25 02:12:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark Simpson
Post by andyP
The whole thing is like the guy that starts tearing up his fence for fire
wood, then his floor, etc. How much before the house (US workforce) caves
in. I have been an independent for 3 years now since the bottom crunched in
the IT market. How many computer jobs to India? I live near Fisher Price
Toys. All they are is a bunch of customer service people on the phone....
manufacturing went over to China... As long as the people that control the
money keep their jobs (and control the media) I don't think the truth about
the impact of the practice of outsourcing will ever get out.
Between repressive labor laws and collective bargaining that inflates
wages for simple tasks, I'm surprised that more industry hasn't gone
off-shore.
What you don't realize is the difference between some going offshore and
actually bringing jobs onshore at the same rate is DOUBLE the
difference. It is government policy to export jobs.

This moronic measure is designed to make a middle clqass in other
countries in an effort to make them less volitile and more part of our
world view of culture and commerce.

Jerry
Post by Mark Simpson
Mark Simpson
NAR 71503 Level II
God Bless our peacekeepers
--
Jerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA
Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to:***@gte.net>
Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration.
Produce then publish. http://www.usrockets.com
My articles valuable? Donate at iKobo.com c/o my email.
Tim
2003-09-24 03:00:54 UTC
Permalink
Just what model Acura do you have? The 3.2CL and 3.2TL are both made in
the Honda Marysville, OHIO plant, a far cry from Japan, I might add.
Prior to the 2001 model, the 3.2CL was made next door in East Liberty,
OHIO, also NOT part of Japan according tomy map.
Don't forget the Honda's made in Lincoln Alabama or the Mercedes M Class
made in Vance Alabama or the Hyundai made in Montgomery Alabama or the
Toyota engines made in Huntsville or all the support plants ........
Nissan trucks and cars are built in Smyrna, TN along with the support
plants strewn across the state.

Honda GoldWing motorcycles have been made in the Marysville area of Ohio
for over 20 years. That's why they decided to put their automotive
plant there.

tim
Tim
2003-09-25 00:55:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tim
Honda GoldWing motorcycles have been made in the Marysville area of Ohio
for over 20 years. That's why they decided to put their automotive
plant there.
Since that model is probably mostly sold to riders in the USA anyway,
it probably saved them a lot of shipping (and import taxes?)...
Yep. The neat thing is that some of the American Honda products are
exported back to Japan. :)
Bob Kaplow
2003-09-24 17:54:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by andyP
I didn't catch the beginning of the thread but this is sought of like my
Acura (Japanese) that has hmmm 250,000 miles and keeps running without a
hiccup as opposed to other garbage "made in the USA".......
Just what model Acura do you have? The 3.2CL and 3.2TL are both made in
the Honda Marysville, OHIO plant, a far cry from Japan, I might add.
Prior to the 2001 model, the 3.2CL was made next door in East Liberty,
OHIO, also NOT part of Japan according tomy map.
My Honda Odyssey uses the Acura 3.5L engine that is probably made in the
same plant as the 3.2L you mention. The car was actually built in Canada.
But my Civic is the first made in USA car I've ever bought. Even my two
Crapavans were made in Canada, with Mitsubishi engines.

Bob Kaplow NAR # 18L TRA # "Impeach the TRA BoD"
Post by andyP
To reply, remove the TRABoD! <<<
Kaplow Klips & Baffle: http://nira-rocketry.org/LeadingEdge/Phantom4000.pdf
www.encompasserve.org/~kaplow_r/ www.nira-rocketry.org www.nar.org

Save Model Rocketry from the HSA! http://www.space-rockets.com/congress.html
moonglow
2003-09-24 18:04:39 UTC
Permalink
Sure we have the Hummer, but who needs it?
I do!!!

A MN winter involves mucho snow(but not last 2 winters) and 4 wheel
drive is god in a snow storm.

Ever see a 20' high snow drift in the middle of a road? Wish I had a
Hummer then.

almost forgot the :)

Ted Novak
TRA#5512
RayDunakin
2003-09-24 19:45:03 UTC
Permalink
Speaking of Hummers, does anyone else think the H2 is a step backwards? It
lacks the high-clearance axles and suspension that was one of the best features
of the original.
Chuck Rudy
2003-09-25 02:08:58 UTC
Permalink
Besides looking hideous? The original was cool utilitarian, the H2 is
Wells Fargo posh.
I can't say much about its looks, but the new go-cart commercial is
pretty cool.
Doug
I'm loving that commercial.......

Chuck
--
Chuck Rudy

VooDoo Digital Productions

http://homepage.mac.com/wesrudy
mike
2003-09-25 02:45:43 UTC
Permalink
It lacks the high-clearance axles and suspension that was one of the best
features of the original.
Yes, but that suspension system and drive train is very, very expensive.
The half-shafts are geared into the wheel rims instead of direct
connected to the hubs. While it gets the shafts up, it add big bucks.
The old VW MicroBus had reduction hubs, and didn't cost a fortune.

**
mike
**
Kurt Kesler
2003-09-25 19:09:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by RayDunakin
Speaking of Hummers, does anyone else think the H2 is a step backwards? It
lacks the high-clearance axles and suspension that was one of the best features
of the original.
It's a creation of marketing. Nothing but a Suburban with a boxy body
and a premium price.
--
Kurt Kesler
Randy
2003-09-25 23:28:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kurt Kesler
It's a creation of marketing.
Exactly!
Post by Kurt Kesler
Nothing but a Suburban with a boxy body
and a premium price.
Nawwwww. I had a 3/4 ton Silverado Suburban for a time and a Hummer doesn't
come close. I'm sure any chicken that crossed the road would agree.

Randy
Mark Simpson
2003-09-25 10:41:34 UTC
Permalink
1. It's made in the same plant (different area,though)
2. It costs less than the original
3. It has more amenities
4. It can be garage kept
5. It is easier for wimps to drive due to narrower wheelbase
6. It makes one helluva tow vehicle.

Mark Simpson
NAR 71503 Level II
God Bless our peacekeepers
Post by RayDunakin
Speaking of Hummers, does anyone else think the H2 is a step backwards? It
lacks the high-clearance axles and suspension that was one of the best features
of the original.
1. It is easier to manufacture
2. It is just as pricey :)
3. It incorporates many feedback requests from potential buyers
It is so different from the original concept, H2.
Jerry
Mark Simpson
2003-09-24 13:41:53 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 23 Sep 2003 21:59:05 -0400, Mark Simpson
Post by andyP
Ironically, most individuals will make a statement that the Japanese build
things to a higher standard as though we could if we tried. Just like the
kid that sits out of a ball game insistent that he can do better if he
tried...
Ever hear of Deming? He was an American who taught the Japanese about
quality control.
Not only can we play ball better, we invented the game.
Maybe we can, but do we? I think US cars still lag the Japanese in
the number of manufacturing defects and owner satisfaction. I think
Jap cars are are more inovative and better designed for the US market
as well. Sure we have the Hummer, but who needs it? BTW, my 1984
Toyoota is still running well. If US cars ran that long, the
manufacturers would be bankrupt.
The most defect-prone motors in US cars are the 4 cylinder ones made for
the Big Three by companies like Mitsubishi.
My 1994 Z28 is putting somewhere between 400 and 500HP to the wheels,.
You know what it costs to get a Ricer to do the same?
It's not American engineering that's the problem, IMHO, it's worker
apathy. I see it every time I spend a day in an assembly plant. The
work is monotonous and people very quickly become callous.

Mark Simpson
NAR 71503 Level II
God Bless our peacekeeper
Chuck Rudy
2003-09-25 02:12:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark Simpson
The most defect-prone motors in US cars are the 4 cylinder ones made
for the Big Three by companies like Mitsubishi.
My 1994 Z28 is putting somewhere between 400 and 500HP to the wheels,.
You know what it costs to get a Ricer to do the same?
It's not American engineering that's the problem, IMHO, it's worker
apathy. I see it every time I spend a day in an assembly plant. The
work is monotonous and people very quickly become callous.
Mark Simpson
NAR 71503 Level II
God Bless our peacekeeper
Maybe they could be replaced with robots? :-) They would then have to
cross train as a robot synchronizer-maintainer-programmer-builder........
--
Chuck Rudy

VooDoo Digital Productions

http://homepage.mac.com/wesrudy
Mark Simpson
2003-09-25 12:42:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chuck Rudy
Maybe they could be replaced with robots? :-) They would then have to
cross train as a robot synchronizer-maintainer-programmer-builder........
Many of them already have been replaced by robots. Cars are now
robot-welded, sealers are applied by robots and almoost all cars are
robot-painted now.

Mark Simpson
NAR 71503 Level II
God Bless our peacekeepers
Mark Simpson
2003-09-21 02:58:50 UTC
Permalink
If you knew your history, you would know that the U.S. in the 1700 and 1800
stole much technology and agricultural products from other countries.
England was one of our favorites. France came in second. Germany was next as
I recall. In addition, we recruited thousands of Chinese laborers by lying
to them and making promises we never had any intention of honoring. They
built much of the RRs that was essential for the country to grow. They died
by the thousands. The British Comet Jet designs helped our aviation. When
the Comets started crashing, the lessons learned by the British were taken
and incorporated into our commercial jets giving us a leg up on them.
All nations steal technology from each other just as everyone screws the
neighbor's wife - if she is pretty.
Give me a break. I'm so sick of the liberal, bad American dribble. The
descendants of those Chinese immigrants that came to build the railroads
are wealthier and infinitely better off than their Homies. The same can
be said for EVERY group of immigrants into the US including the slaves.

Mark Simpson
NAR 71503 Level II
God Bless our peacekeepers
Arnold Roquerre
2003-09-23 01:24:44 UTC
Permalink
I honestly don't know which is worse, puss ridden liberals or red necked
hicks like you. You both discuss me. History is man's attempt to crawl over
garbage like you and liberals to reach the light. I am a lifetime Republican
who pushed for the invasion of Iraq and nuking the Islamic shit hole Mecca
if WMDs are ever used on the U.S. I think Kennedy should be in prison along
with the bitch Hillary and her pimp husband. Liberals are as evil as
dangerous as Ben Laden ever was. The ACLU does more damage to this nation
yearly than a dozen 911s could. I don't fell hicks like yourself in much
better light. I will admit you come in handy when paths need to be cleared
for tanks, but that is about it. In short, dude, I am a Republican.
Actually, I would be a Libertarian, but with f___ks like you and your
liberals twins, they don't have a chance, so I stay a Republican.

The Chinese who came to the United States where not better off. They lived
to be 70 years old in China - bubble head. They came to the U.S. to earn
money to buy land for their families in China. THEY WERE LIED TO FUCK HEAD
AND THEY DIED BY THE THOUSANDS! What was done to them was pure "evil". I did
not say the United States was any worse for being "evil" I said all nations
have done the same including China. It is still "evil". Just as it was when
Roosevelt baited the Japanese to attack the United States so he could push
the U.S. into war against the wishes of millions of Italian and Germans in
order to save the British and keep the Soviet Communist experiment going.
His attacking German U-Boats was illegal and unethical as was Churchill's
baiting the Lusitanian in World War I to it's grave and staying silent on
the fact that the ship was carrying munitions. Hundreds of thousands of
Americans died sin World War I so the stage could set the for the Second
World War which in turn killed millions and did nothing for the U.S. Instead
of Hitler and Mussolini we had Stalin and Mao and 300,000 dead Americans.
Instead of Poland and Southern Europe being under Hitler these nations ended
up under Stalin. We ended up losing another 100,000 in Korea fighting
Communist which we would not have had happened if the butcher Roosevelt had
not plaid politics with over 500,000 American lives. Keep in mind,
Roosevelt cut of Japanese access to American oil. What would we do if the
Arab nations cut of oil to us today? Push that pea you call a brain and
think about it.

Arnold
Post by Mark Simpson
If you knew your history, you would know that the U.S. in the 1700 and 1800
stole much technology and agricultural products from other countries.
England was one of our favorites. France came in second. Germany was next as
I recall. In addition, we recruited thousands of Chinese laborers by lying
to them and making promises we never had any intention of honoring. They
built much of the RRs that was essential for the country to grow. They died
by the thousands. The British Comet Jet designs helped our aviation. When
the Comets started crashing, the lessons learned by the British were taken
and incorporated into our commercial jets giving us a leg up on them.
All nations steal technology from each other just as everyone screws the
neighbor's wife - if she is pretty.
Give me a break. I'm so sick of the liberal, bad American dribble. The
descendants of those Chinese immigrants that came to build the railroads
are wealthier and infinitely better off than their Homies. The same can
be said for EVERY group of immigrants into the US including the slaves.
Mark Simpson
NAR 71503 Level II
God Bless our peacekeepers
Steven P. McNicoll
2003-09-23 01:41:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Arnold Roquerre
I honestly don't know which is worse, puss ridden liberals or red necked
hicks like you. You both discuss me.
What do they say about you?
RayDunakin
2003-09-23 04:27:14 UTC
Permalink
<< I honestly don't know which is worse, puss ridden liberals or red necked
hicks like you. You both discuss me. >>

But when they discuss you, are they laughing or crying?
Marcus Leech
2003-09-23 16:54:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Arnold Roquerre
I honestly don't know which is worse, puss ridden liberals or red necked
hicks like you. You both discuss me. History is man's attempt to crawl over
garbage like you and liberals to reach the light. I am a lifetime Republican
who pushed for the invasion of Iraq and nuking the Islamic shit hole Mecca
if WMDs are ever used on the U.S.
So the next time some nutbar christian fundamentalist group peforms some
particularly atrocious act, the correct response would be to bomb the
piss out of the Vatican?

Honestly, attitudes like that make me glad that I'm not from this planet...
Jerry Irvine
2003-09-23 19:09:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Marcus Leech
Post by Arnold Roquerre
I honestly don't know which is worse, puss ridden liberals or red necked
hicks like you. You both discuss me. History is man's attempt to crawl over
garbage like you and liberals to reach the light. I am a lifetime Republican
who pushed for the invasion of Iraq and nuking the Islamic shit hole Mecca
if WMDs are ever used on the U.S.
So the next time some nutbar christian fundamentalist group peforms some
particularly atrocious act, the correct response would be to bomb the
piss out of the Vatican?
Don't give the Israelies any ideas :)
Post by Marcus Leech
Honestly, attitudes like that make me glad that I'm not from this planet...
--
Jerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA
Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to:***@gte.net>
Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration.
Produce then publish. http://www.usrockets.com
My articles valuable? Donate at iKobo.com c/o my email.
Randy
2003-09-24 02:24:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Marcus Leech
Honestly, attitudes like that make me glad that I'm not from this planet...
Nan noo! Nan noo! ; )
Shazbot!

Randy
Mark Simpson
2003-09-24 16:38:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Marcus Leech
Post by Arnold Roquerre
I honestly don't know which is worse, puss ridden liberals or red necked
hicks like you. You both discuss me. History is man's attempt to crawl over
garbage like you and liberals to reach the light. I am a lifetime Republican
who pushed for the invasion of Iraq and nuking the Islamic shit hole Mecca
if WMDs are ever used on the U.S.
So the next time some nutbar christian fundamentalist group peforms some
particularly atrocious act, the correct response would be to bomb the
piss out of the Vatican?
Catholics are a far cry from Christian Fundamentalists, trust me, I
are one (Catholic, that is). Bomb the Crystal Palace instead. ;-)
Post by Marcus Leech
Honestly, attitudes like that make me glad that I'm not from this planet...
Gort! Klaatu borado nikto!

Mark Simpson
NAR 71503 Level II
God Bless our peacekeepers
Mario Perdue
2003-09-25 01:59:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark Simpson
Klaatu borado nikto
Klaatu Barada Nikto

Mario Perdue
NAR #22012 Sr. L2

for email drop the planet

http://www.indyrockets.org

"X-ray-Delta-One, this is Mission Control, two-one-five-six, transmission concluded."
RayDunakin
2003-09-25 19:34:41 UTC
Permalink
<< Klaatu Barada Nikto >>

"Klaatu Barada... nickle? Necktie? Klaatu Barada N...<cough>! There! I said
it!"

Surely someone here will recognize this. :)
Kurt Kesler
2003-09-25 19:56:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by RayDunakin
<< Klaatu Barada Nikto >>
"Klaatu Barada... nickle? Necktie? Klaatu Barada N...<cough>! There! I said
it!"
Surely someone here will recognize this. :)
If you liked Army of Darkness, you are gonna love this:

http://www.bubbahotep.com/
--
Kurt Kesler
h***@weinerboy.org
2003-09-25 20:26:13 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 25 Sep 2003 15:56:04 -0400, Kurt Kesler
Post by Kurt Kesler
Post by RayDunakin
<< Klaatu Barada Nikto >>
"Klaatu Barada... nickle? Necktie? Klaatu Barada N...<cough>! There! I said
it!"
Surely someone here will recognize this. :)
http://www.bubbahotep.com/
WTF?

And I'd thought I'd seen everything when I watched "Nuclear Tornado"!

<g>

tah

--

Tod A. Hilty
Hilty Information Systems

Do not look in the direction of the flash...
Curl up in a ball as you hit the ground...

Please replace weinerboy dot org with adelphia dot net for reply.
Rick Dickinson
2003-09-26 18:54:14 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 25 Sep 2003 15:56:04 -0400, Kurt Kesler
Post by Kurt Kesler
http://www.bubbahotep.com/
"Based on the Bram Stoker Award nominee short story by acclaimed
author Joe R. Lansdale, Bubba Ho-tep tells the “true” story of what
really did become of Elvis. We find the King(Bruce Campbell) as an
elderly resident in an East Texas rest home, who switched identities
with an Elvis impersonator years before his “death”, then missed his
chance to switch back. Elvis teams up with Jack(Ossie Davis), a fellow
nursing home resident who thinks that he is actually President John F.
Kennedy, and the two valiant old codgers sally forth to battle an evil
Egyptian entity who has chosen their long-term care facility as his
happy hunting grounds…"

That is truly a scary description. I *need* to see this movie.

- Rick "It's necessary" Dickinson
--
"I just purchased a shiny new Leatherman Wave.[...] It's likely
that random objects in the house will spend the next few days
being plied, screwdriven, and scissed. When you have a Leatherman,
everything looks Leathermanipulable." -- Nathan McCoy
Kurt Kesler
2003-09-26 19:16:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by h***@weinerboy.org
On Thu, 25 Sep 2003 15:56:04 -0400, Kurt Kesler
Post by Kurt Kesler
http://www.bubbahotep.com/
"Based on the Bram Stoker Award nominee short story by acclaimed
author Joe R. Lansdale, Bubba Ho-tep tells the “true” story of what
really did become of Elvis. We find the King(Bruce Campbell) as an
elderly resident in an East Texas rest home, who switched identities
with an Elvis impersonator years before his “death”, then missed his
chance to switch back. Elvis teams up with Jack(Ossie Davis), a fellow
nursing home resident who thinks that he is actually President John F.
Kennedy, and the two valiant old codgers sally forth to battle an evil
Egyptian entity who has chosen their long-term care facility as his
happy hunting grounds…"
That is truly a scary description. I *need* to see this movie.
- Rick "It's necessary" Dickinson
You left out that the director, Don Coscarelli, is the same guy who did
Phantasm and Beastmaster.

It's gonna be a hoot.
--
Kurt (hail to the king, baby) Kesler
Bob Kaplow
2003-09-26 16:31:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mario Perdue
Klaatu Barada Nikto
Klaatu Barada Nixon. Old Vulcan proverb.


Bob Kaplow NAR # 18L TRA # "Impeach the TRA BoD"
Post by Mario Perdue
To reply, remove the TRABoD! <<<
Kaplow Klips & Baffle: http://nira-rocketry.org/LeadingEdge/Phantom4000.pdf
www.encompasserve.org/~kaplow_r/ www.nira-rocketry.org www.nar.org

Save Model Rocketry from the HSA! http://www.space-rockets.com/congress.html
BB
2003-09-26 18:02:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bob Kaplow
Post by Mario Perdue
Klaatu Barada Nikto
Klaatu Barada Nixon. Old Vulcan proverb.
er, wasn't that "It took Nixon to raze a village"?
Randy
2003-09-26 18:26:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bob Kaplow
Post by Mario Perdue
Klaatu Barada Nikto
Klaatu Barada Nixon. Old Vulcan proverb.
"Only Nixon can go to China."

"I don't trust them I never have........."
"Guess who's coming to deener"

Randy
Marcus Leech
2003-09-25 18:49:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark Simpson
Catholics are a far cry from Christian Fundamentalists, trust me, I
are one (Catholic, that is). Bomb the Crystal Palace instead. ;-)
Which was exactly my point. The average Muslim making his once-in-a lifetime
pilgrammage to Mecca (Hadj) is related to nutbar terrorists
to roughly the same degree as your average Catholic making the trip to
the Vatican, which is to say, not at all.
RayDunakin
2003-09-25 19:42:19 UTC
Permalink
<< The average Muslim making his once-in-a lifetime pilgrammage to Mecca (Hadj)
is related to nutbar terrorists to roughly the same degree as your average
Catholic making the trip to the Vatican, which is to say, not at all. >>

I agree that they should not all be lumped together with terrorists. However,
it does appear that a large percentage of Muslims do support terrorist acts.
You don't see video of Catholics dancing in the street everytime some nutjob
bombs an abortion clinic.
David Erbas-White
2003-09-25 20:23:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by RayDunakin
<< The average Muslim making his once-in-a lifetime pilgrammage to Mecca (Hadj)
is related to nutbar terrorists to roughly the same degree as your average
Catholic making the trip to the Vatican, which is to say, not at all. >>
I agree that they should not all be lumped together with terrorists. However,
it does appear that a large percentage of Muslims do support terrorist acts.
You don't see video of Catholics dancing in the street everytime some nutjob
bombs an abortion clinic.
You certainly saw a lot of Catholics dancing in the streets of Belfast
during the troubles in Ireland, when terrorism was committed against
England...

David Erbas-White
Bob Kaplow
2003-09-26 16:32:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by RayDunakin
<< The average Muslim making his once-in-a lifetime pilgrammage to Mecca (Hadj)
is related to nutbar terrorists to roughly the same degree as your average
Catholic making the trip to the Vatican, which is to say, not at all. >>
I agree that they should not all be lumped together with terrorists. However,
it does appear that a large percentage of Muslims do support terrorist acts.
You don't see video of Catholics dancing in the street everytime some nutjob
bombs an abortion clinic.
Perhaps you forgot the ones in Northern Ireland...

Bob Kaplow NAR # 18L TRA # "Impeach the TRA BoD"
Post by RayDunakin
To reply, remove the TRABoD! <<<
Kaplow Klips & Baffle: http://nira-rocketry.org/LeadingEdge/Phantom4000.pdf
www.encompasserve.org/~kaplow_r/ www.nira-rocketry.org www.nar.org

Save Model Rocketry from the HSA! http://www.space-rockets.com/congress.html
Jerry Irvine
2003-09-23 19:02:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Arnold Roquerre
I honestly don't know which is worse, puss ridden liberals or red necked
hicks like you. You both discuss me.
Your invectives would carry more weight if you learned to spell, to
start. As for being a hick goes, if being born in Philadelphia, raised
in NJ and educated at Rutgers U makes me a hick, then I'm guilty as
charged.
:) uh, ya.
Post by Arnold Roquerre
History is man's attempt to crawl over
garbage like you and liberals to reach the light.
Oh please, there's blood oozing out of my monitor.
:)
Post by Arnold Roquerre
I am a lifetime Republican
who pushed for the invasion of Iraq and nuking the Islamic shit hole Mecca
if WMDs are ever used on the U.S. I think Kennedy should be in prison along
with the bitch Hillary and her pimp husband. Liberals are as evil as
dangerous as Ben Laden ever was. The ACLU does more damage to this nation
yearly than a dozen 911s could.
We actually agree on the above. Does that make me educated or you a
hick? ;-)
hick.
Post by Arnold Roquerre
I don't fell hicks like yourself in much
better light. I will admit you come in handy when paths need to be cleared
for tanks, but that is about it. In short, dude, I am a Republican.
Actually, I would be a Libertarian, but with f___ks like you and your
liberals twins, they don't have a chance, so I stay a Republican.
I'm neither. I'm a Jeffersonian Liberal.
Thank god!
I believe in following the
Constitution and not allowing for Federal expansion of its mission.
Codify that!
Now isn't that a curious position for a redneck hick to hold?
Or a revolutionary.

Jerry
Post by Arnold Roquerre
The Chinese who came to the United States where not better off. They lived
to be 70 years old in China - bubble head. They came to the U.S. to earn
money to buy land for their families in China. THEY WERE LIED TO "expletive
deleted because I'M a civilized hick" HEAD
AND THEY DIED BY THE THOUSANDS! What was done to them was pure "evil". I did
not say the United States was any worse for being "evil" I said all nations
have done the same including China.
You, obviously are only a passive student of Chinese history. Does
the name Chairman Mao ring a bell with you? He butchered MILLIONS of
his own people; thousands would have been "chump change" to him.
Look at the SF phonebook and see where those Chinese descendents live
today. I'd say they're better off by far.
Post by Arnold Roquerre
It is still "evil". Just as it was when
Roosevelt baited the Japanese to attack the United States so he could push
the U.S. into war against the wishes of millions of Italian and Germans in
order to save the British and keep the Soviet Communist experiment going.
Those poor Japanese. All they were doing was killing and torturing
everyone else in the region. I suggest that you read up on the "rape
of Nanching" and other Japanese WWII atrocities. Here's a little help
http://www.thelowell.org/opinion/2001-02/oct31-jpnapology.html
Post by Arnold Roquerre
His attacking German U-Boats was illegal and unethical as was Churchill's
baiting the Lusitanian in World War I to it's grave and staying silent on
the fact that the ship was carrying munitions. Hundreds of thousands of
Americans died sin World War I so the stage could set the for the Second
World War which in turn killed millions and did nothing for the U.S.
The US got into WWI late and the Treaty of Versaille led to WWII. I
suggest that YOU bone up on your history, DUDE.
Post by Arnold Roquerre
Instead
of Hitler and Mussolini we had Stalin and Mao and 300,000 dead Americans.
Are you suggesting that the US could or should have done something to
stop Mao and Stalin? Just how many wars do you think the American
public would support at once?
Post by Arnold Roquerre
Instead of Poland and Southern Europe being under Hitler these nations ended
up under Stalin. We ended up losing another 100,000 in Korea fighting
Communist which we would not have had happened if the butcher Roosevelt had
not plaid politics with over 500,000 American lives.
Roosevelt "plaid" politics? They were pretty monochromatic from my
point of view, but what do I know, I'm just a hick from NJ. ;-)
Post by Arnold Roquerre
Keep in mind,
Roosevelt cut of Japanese access to American oil. What would we do if the
Arab nations cut of oil to us today? Push that pea you call a brain and
think about it.
It must be nice to be able to see inter-related world events as
separate entities with no interactions. Are you familiar with
Roosevelt's "good neighbor policy"? If not, maybe you'll gain a better
understanding of why we entered WWII.
But, what da heck do I noz; I'm jest a unegimicated country bumpkin.
Mark Simpson
NAR 71503 Level II
God Bless our peacekeepers
--
Jerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA
Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to:***@gte.net>
Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration.
Produce then publish. http://www.usrockets.com
My articles valuable? Donate at iKobo.com c/o my email.
Randy
2003-09-24 02:26:29 UTC
Permalink
"Mark Simpson" <***@home.com> wrote in message news:***@posting.google.com...

Too logical, too many facts. It will not compute Will Robinson.

Randy
Jerry Irvine
2003-09-24 16:25:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Randy
Too logical, too many facts. It will not compute Will Robinson.
Nonsense Randy, he must be a genius if he was able to see through my
facade of intelligent reasoning, backed up by verifiable facts and
conclude that I was just a red-neck hick in disguise. ;-)
This should be in the FAQ.
Mark Simpson
NAR 71503 Level II
God Bless our peacekeepers
--
Jerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA
Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to:***@gte.net>
Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration.
Produce then publish. http://www.usrockets.com
My articles valuable? Donate at iKobo.com c/o my email.
Chuck Rudy
2003-09-24 21:43:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Randy
Too logical, too many facts. It will not compute Will Robinson.
Nonsense Randy, he must be a genius if he was able to see through my
facade of intelligent reasoning, backed up by verifiable facts and
conclude that I was just a red-neck hick in disguise. ;-)
Mark Simpson
NAR 71503 Level II
God Bless our peacekeepers
Wait! South Jersey? You're a Piney!!
--
Chuck Rudy

VooDoo Digital Productions

http://homepage.mac.com/wesrudy
Mark Simpson
2003-09-25 02:00:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chuck Rudy
Post by Randy
Too logical, too many facts. It will not compute Will Robinson.
Nonsense Randy, he must be a genius if he was able to see through my
facade of intelligent reasoning, backed up by verifiable facts and
conclude that I was just a red-neck hick in disguise. ;-)
Mark Simpson
NAR 71503 Level II
God Bless our peacekeepers
Wait! South Jersey? You're a Piney!!
Not that far south. ;-) I was raised right across the river from the
Philly airport. My HS was used to film J-Lo's new movie Jersey
Girl,which hasn't been released yet.

Mark Simpson
NAR 71503 Level II
God Bless our peacekeepers
Chuck Rudy
2003-09-25 23:41:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark Simpson
Post by Chuck Rudy
Post by Randy
Too logical, too many facts. It will not compute Will Robinson.
Nonsense Randy, he must be a genius if he was able to see through my
facade of intelligent reasoning, backed up by verifiable facts and
conclude that I was just a red-neck hick in disguise. ;-)
Mark Simpson
NAR 71503 Level II
God Bless our peacekeepers
Wait! South Jersey? You're a Piney!!
Not that far south. ;-) I was raised right across the river from the
Philly airport. My HS was used to film J-Lo's new movie Jersey
Girl,which hasn't been released yet.
Well, when you lived in Jersey did you ever attend a Hootenanny? :-)
They were a Piney thiing.......dunno if they still have em though.

Chuck
Chuck Rudy

VooDoo Digital Productions

http://homepage.mac.com/wesrudy
Mark Simpson
2003-09-26 19:55:43 UTC
Permalink
some deleted
Post by Chuck Rudy
Post by Mark Simpson
Post by Chuck Rudy
Wait! South Jersey? You're a Piney!!
Not that far south. ;-) I was raised right across the river from the
Philly airport. My HS was used to film J-Lo's new movie Jersey
Girl,which hasn't been released yet.
Well, when you lived in Jersey did you ever attend a Hootenanny? :-)
They were a Piney thiing.......dunno if they still have em though.
No, but I always regretted never making it to the taping of American
Bandstand in Philly or Al Hurt's Steel Pier Show in Atlantic City in
the late 60's and 70's.

Mark Simpson
NAR 71503 Level II
God Bless our peacekeepers
Chuck Rudy
2003-09-26 22:17:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark Simpson
some deleted
Post by Chuck Rudy
Post by Mark Simpson
Post by Chuck Rudy
Wait! South Jersey? You're a Piney!!
Not that far south. ;-) I was raised right across the river from the
Philly airport. My HS was used to film J-Lo's new movie Jersey
Girl,which hasn't been released yet.
Well, when you lived in Jersey did you ever attend a Hootenanny? :-)
They were a Piney thiing.......dunno if they still have em though.
No, but I always regretted never making it to the taping of American
Bandstand in Philly or Al Hurt's Steel Pier Show in Atlantic City in
the late 60's and 70's.
Mark Simpson
NAR 71503 Level II
God Bless our peacekeepers
Remember the diving horse on the Steel Pier? The announcer for that was
Gene Hart, and I *believe* it was his wife who rode the horse down, Gene
has passed but his daughter Lauren Hart is now doing the God Bless
America at the Flyers games.......just to let you know the Jersey
tomatoes still can't be beat, PA corn has no match, if you remember
Bandstand you probably remember the Aquarama, the Good Ship Lolly Pop,
Gene London, Farmer Bill Bennet, the Eagles at Franklin Field, JFK
Stadium, Connie Mack Stadium........

Chuck
--
Chuck Rudy

VooDoo Digital Productions

http://homepage.mac.com/wesrudy
Randy
2003-09-24 23:53:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Randy
Too logical, too many facts. It will not compute Will Robinson.
Nonsense Randy, he must be a genius if he was able to see through my
facade of intelligent reasoning, backed up by verifiable facts and
conclude that I was just a red-neck hick in disguise. ;-)
Mark Simpson
NAR 71503 Level II
God Bless our peacekeepers
y***@yahoo.com
2003-09-25 17:00:37 UTC
Permalink
Sorry Mark, you have no clue what you're talking about.

There were nearly ZERO descendents of the Chinese that built the
railroads. The ones that didn't die were shipped back to China.

As recently as 1964 when my parents came here from Taiwan for graduate
school, they had to hide the fact that they were engaged. If they had
been married, they would not have been able to come here together.
The extent of this was that my mother had to attend a different
college and later transferred to UVA where my Father was attending.


1850s - Chinese immigrants come to the United States mainland
to work in California gold mines and play an essential
role in building the transcontinental railroads. An
estimated 1800-2000 Chinese die during construction
due to accidents, disease, or poor living conditions.

1852 - California imposes "Foreign Miner's Tax" ($3) for any
miner who is not an intending citizen. In 1855,
California imposes $50 tax on newly arrived miners
who are not intending citizens. (Note: only
whites were eligible for naturalization.) In 1858,
landing of Chinese are prohibited altogether. In
1862, California imposes a head tax of $2.5 per month
on resident Chinese immigrants.

1868 - The 14th Amendment to the U.S. Constitution grants
citizenship rights to all persons born in the United
States.

Congress modifies citizenship law to include "aliens of
African nativity and persons of African descent" as
eligible for naturalization. Asian immigrants remain
the only group excluded from naturalization.

1869 - Transcontinental railroads completed. Resentment
against Chinese workers rises. Anti-Chinese clubs
and organizations appear in California. Major
political parties adopt anti-Chinese platforms.

THE NEW YORK TIMES on Chinese immigrants: "A population
befouled with all the social vices, with no knowledge or
appreciation of free instituions or constitutional
liberty, with heathenish souls and heathenish propen-
sities, whose character, and habits, and modes of
thought are firmly fixed by the consolidating influence
of ages upon ages."

1871 - About 20 Chinese are massacred in Los Angeles by a
white mob. In 1877, a similar incident occurs in San
Francisco's Chinatown, and 5 Chinese farmers are also
murdered in Chico, Calif.

1873 - San Francisco passes Laundry Ordinance, imposing a tax
of $1.25 on laundry shops owning one horse-drawn
vehicle, $15 on laundry shops owning no horse-
drawn vehicle (most Chinese-owned shops belonged to
the latter category), and Cubic Air Ordinance, requiring
that living spaces are to have at least 500 cubic
feet of space per person (this ordinance is only
enforced in Chinatown).

The Laundry Ordinance also forbade shops of wood
construction on grounds of fire hazard. Mr. Yick Wo,
who had owned and operated a laundry shop for 20 years,
was denied a renewal of license and subsequently
imprisoned for violating the Laundary Ordinance. The
subsequent legal fight is appealed to the United States
Supreme Court, which ruled in favor of Wo.

1880 - California enacts law to prohibit whites from marrying
a "negro, mulatto, or Mongolian". After a Fillipino
successfully argued in court that he was a Malay, not
a "Mongolian", and should be allowed to marry a white
women, the legislature amended the law to include
Fillipinos in the prohibition list in 1933.

1882 - "Chinese Exclusion Act" passes Congress. Among other
restrictions, this act prohibits wives of male laborers
from entering the United States. Emigration of
Chinese laborers is suspended for 10 years.

1887 - 31 Chinese miners are robbed, murdered, and mutilated
in the "Snake River (Oregon) Massacre".

1880s - Japanese immigrants come to U.S. mainland, engaged
mostly in agriculture and trade.

1892 - Chinese immigration suspended for another 10 years.
Chinese immigrants already in the U.S. are required
to obtain "certificate of residence".

1900s - Filipino immigrants come to the U.S., Largely as laborers.
with emigration increasing substantially in the 1920s.

1904 - Chinese immigration ban extended indefinitely. Because
the earlier Chinese immigrants have been predominately
male, the result of the immigration ban and the Chinese
Exclusion act have caused the Chinese population to drop
from 105,465 in 1880 to 61,639 in 1920.

1907 - Japanese government negotiates "Gentleman's Agreement"
with U.S. to voluntarily restrict emigration of
unskilled Japanese to the U.S., in exchange, parents,
wives, fiancees, and children of Japanese immigrants
are allowed entry. Japanese population grows from 25,000
in 1900 to roughly 127,000 in 1940, surpassing the
Chinese population.

1913 - California enacted Asian Land Law, prohibiting persons
ineligible for citizenship from owning land in
California, targeting Japanese immigrants. Many Japanese
farmers circumvent the law by purchasing land under the
names of their American-born children. In 1920, the law
is amended to forbid Japanese immigrants from acting as
guardians for their children in matter of land-
ownership, and prohibited them from leasing land.

1917 - Immigration Act of 1917 bans immigration from all
countries in the Asian-Pacific Triangle except for
the Philipines and Japan.

1924 - Immigration Act of 1924 bans immigration from Japan.
Immigration quota for all countries are limited to 2%
of their population already in the U.S. Persons
ineligible for citizenship (i.e. Asians) are not
allowed to immigrate.

1934 - The Tydings-McDuffe Act gives the Phillipines Commonwealth
status and declares Filipinos not born in the
United States as aliens. An annual quota of _50_
Filipinos are permitted to emigrate to the U.S.

1935 - The Repatriation Act offers one-way tickets to the
Phillipines to resident Filipinos, under condition that
they agreed not to return to the U.S. About 2000
people accept the offer.

1942 - President Roosevelt orders internment of 100,000
Japanese immigrants for reasons of national defense.
The internees were officially released in Jan. 1945.
No similar internments were ordered for persons of
German or Italian descent.

In 1948 Congress passes Japanese American Evacuation
Claims Act, offering compensation which amounts to
about 10 cents for each dollar actually lost.

1943 - The Chinese Exclusion Act is repealed. The annual
immigration quota for Chinese is set at _105_.

1945 - The War Brides Act permits immigration of Asian
spouses and children of American servicemen in the
war.

1946 - Filipinos and Asian Indians granted eligibility for
naturalization. Immigration quota for the two
countries were also increased.

1952 - The McCarran-Walter Act ends Asian immigration ban
and extends naturalization rights to all races (the
first time for Asians). However, The act retains the
2% quota system of the 1924 Act, effectively
discriminating against Asian immigrants because of
their small resident population.





On Sat, 20 Sep 2003 22:58:50 -0400, Mark Simpson
Post by Mark Simpson
If you knew your history, you would know that the U.S. in the 1700 and 1800
stole much technology and agricultural products from other countries.
England was one of our favorites. France came in second. Germany was next as
I recall. In addition, we recruited thousands of Chinese laborers by lying
to them and making promises we never had any intention of honoring. They
built much of the RRs that was essential for the country to grow. They died
by the thousands. The British Comet Jet designs helped our aviation. When
the Comets started crashing, the lessons learned by the British were taken
and incorporated into our commercial jets giving us a leg up on them.
All nations steal technology from each other just as everyone screws the
neighbor's wife - if she is pretty.
Give me a break. I'm so sick of the liberal, bad American dribble. The
descendants of those Chinese immigrants that came to build the railroads
are wealthier and infinitely better off than their Homies. The same can
be said for EVERY group of immigrants into the US including the slaves.
Mark Simpson
NAR 71503 Level II
God Bless our peacekeepers
Mark Simpson
2003-09-25 10:52:11 UTC
Permalink
Yitah,
Thanks for the history lesson, and I mean that sincerely. I guess
there's a lot that isn't found in history textbooks and I shouldn't have
assumed that those prospering in CA today were descendents of those that
came to build the RR. You do have to admit, though, that the hardships
under Mao still dwarfed anything that happened in the US during that
time period.
Good to see you're still enjoying the hobby. I don't think that either
of us have been to a HUVARS meeting in quite some time.

Tak care,

Mark Simpson
NAR 71503 Level II
God Bless our peacekeepers
Post by y***@yahoo.com
Sorry Mark, you have no clue what you're talking about.
There were nearly ZERO descendents of the Chinese that built the
railroads. The ones that didn't die were shipped back to China.
As recently as 1964 when my parents came here from Taiwan for graduate
school, they had to hide the fact that they were engaged. If they had
been married, they would not have been able to come here together.
The extent of this was that my mother had to attend a different
college and later transferred to UVA where my Father was attending.
1850s - Chinese immigrants come to the United States mainland
to work in California gold mines and play an essential
role in building the transcontinental railroads. An
estimated 1800-2000 Chinese die during construction
due to accidents, disease, or poor living conditions.
1852 - California imposes "Foreign Miner's Tax" ($3) for any
miner who is not an intending citizen. In 1855,
California imposes $50 tax on newly arrived miners
who are not intending citizens. (Note: only
whites were eligible for naturalization.) In 1858,
landing of Chinese are prohibited altogether. In
1862, California imposes a head tax of $2.5 per month
on resident Chinese immigrants.
1868 - The 14th Amendment to the U.S. Constitution grants
citizenship rights to all persons born in the United
States.
Congress modifies citizenship law to include "aliens of
African nativity and persons of African descent" as
eligible for naturalization. Asian immigrants remain
the only group excluded from naturalization.
1869 - Transcontinental railroads completed. Resentment
against Chinese workers rises. Anti-Chinese clubs
and organizations appear in California. Major
political parties adopt anti-Chinese platforms.
THE NEW YORK TIMES on Chinese immigrants: "A population
befouled with all the social vices, with no knowledge or
appreciation of free instituions or constitutional
liberty, with heathenish souls and heathenish propen-
sities, whose character, and habits, and modes of
thought are firmly fixed by the consolidating influence
of ages upon ages."
1871 - About 20 Chinese are massacred in Los Angeles by a
white mob. In 1877, a similar incident occurs in San
Francisco's Chinatown, and 5 Chinese farmers are also
murdered in Chico, Calif.
1873 - San Francisco passes Laundry Ordinance, imposing a tax
of $1.25 on laundry shops owning one horse-drawn
vehicle, $15 on laundry shops owning no horse-
drawn vehicle (most Chinese-owned shops belonged to
the latter category), and Cubic Air Ordinance, requiring
that living spaces are to have at least 500 cubic
feet of space per person (this ordinance is only
enforced in Chinatown).
The Laundry Ordinance also forbade shops of wood
construction on grounds of fire hazard. Mr. Yick Wo,
who had owned and operated a laundry shop for 20 years,
was denied a renewal of license and subsequently
imprisoned for violating the Laundary Ordinance. The
subsequent legal fight is appealed to the United States
Supreme Court, which ruled in favor of Wo.
1880 - California enacts law to prohibit whites from marrying
a "negro, mulatto, or Mongolian". After a Fillipino
successfully argued in court that he was a Malay, not
a "Mongolian", and should be allowed to marry a white
women, the legislature amended the law to include
Fillipinos in the prohibition list in 1933.
1882 - "Chinese Exclusion Act" passes Congress. Among other
restrictions, this act prohibits wives of male laborers
from entering the United States. Emigration of
Chinese laborers is suspended for 10 years.
1887 - 31 Chinese miners are robbed, murdered, and mutilated
in the "Snake River (Oregon) Massacre".
1880s - Japanese immigrants come to U.S. mainland, engaged
mostly in agriculture and trade.
1892 - Chinese immigration suspended for another 10 years.
Chinese immigrants already in the U.S. are required
to obtain "certificate of residence".
1900s - Filipino immigrants come to the U.S., Largely as laborers.
with emigration increasing substantially in the 1920s.
1904 - Chinese immigration ban extended indefinitely. Because
the earlier Chinese immigrants have been predominately
male, the result of the immigration ban and the Chinese
Exclusion act have caused the Chinese population to drop
from 105,465 in 1880 to 61,639 in 1920.
1907 - Japanese government negotiates "Gentleman's Agreement"
with U.S. to voluntarily restrict emigration of
unskilled Japanese to the U.S., in exchange, parents,
wives, fiancees, and children of Japanese immigrants
are allowed entry. Japanese population grows from 25,000
in 1900 to roughly 127,000 in 1940, surpassing the
Chinese population.
1913 - California enacted Asian Land Law, prohibiting persons
ineligible for citizenship from owning land in
California, targeting Japanese immigrants. Many Japanese
farmers circumvent the law by purchasing land under the
names of their American-born children. In 1920, the law
is amended to forbid Japanese immigrants from acting as
guardians for their children in matter of land-
ownership, and prohibited them from leasing land.
1917 - Immigration Act of 1917 bans immigration from all
countries in the Asian-Pacific Triangle except for
the Philipines and Japan.
1924 - Immigration Act of 1924 bans immigration from Japan.
Immigration quota for all countries are limited to 2%
of their population already in the U.S. Persons
ineligible for citizenship (i.e. Asians) are not
allowed to immigrate.
1934 - The Tydings-McDuffe Act gives the Phillipines Commonwealth
status and declares Filipinos not born in the
United States as aliens. An annual quota of _50_
Filipinos are permitted to emigrate to the U.S.
1935 - The Repatriation Act offers one-way tickets to the
Phillipines to resident Filipinos, under condition that
they agreed not to return to the U.S. About 2000
people accept the offer.
1942 - President Roosevelt orders internment of 100,000
Japanese immigrants for reasons of national defense.
The internees were officially released in Jan. 1945.
No similar internments were ordered for persons of
German or Italian descent.
In 1948 Congress passes Japanese American Evacuation
Claims Act, offering compensation which amounts to
about 10 cents for each dollar actually lost.
1943 - The Chinese Exclusion Act is repealed. The annual
immigration quota for Chinese is set at _105_.
1945 - The War Brides Act permits immigration of Asian
spouses and children of American servicemen in the
war.
1946 - Filipinos and Asian Indians granted eligibility for
naturalization. Immigration quota for the two
countries were also increased.
1952 - The McCarran-Walter Act ends Asian immigration ban
and extends naturalization rights to all races (the
first time for Asians). However, The act retains the
2% quota system of the 1924 Act, effectively
discriminating against Asian immigrants because of
their small resident population.
On Sat, 20 Sep 2003 22:58:50 -0400, Mark Simpson
Post by Mark Simpson
If you knew your history, you would know that the U.S. in the 1700 and 1800
stole much technology and agricultural products from other countries.
England was one of our favorites. France came in second. Germany was next as
I recall. In addition, we recruited thousands of Chinese laborers by lying
to them and making promises we never had any intention of honoring. They
built much of the RRs that was essential for the country to grow. They died
by the thousands. The British Comet Jet designs helped our aviation. When
the Comets started crashing, the lessons learned by the British were taken
and incorporated into our commercial jets giving us a leg up on them.
All nations steal technology from each other just as everyone screws the
neighbor's wife - if she is pretty.
Give me a break. I'm so sick of the liberal, bad American dribble. The
descendants of those Chinese immigrants that came to build the railroads
are wealthier and infinitely better off than their Homies. The same can
be said for EVERY group of immigrants into the US including the slaves.
Mark Simpson
NAR 71503 Level II
God Bless our peacekeepers
y***@yahoo.com
2003-09-27 01:38:43 UTC
Permalink
We've got a little one here (9 weeks old) so not much time to do
anything but dream about rockets and rear RMR once a week or so.

The Central Pacific Railroad actually treated the Chinese better than
they were treated elsewhere. (Mining towns, etc) The mistreatment and
casualties seem to be something of an urban legend, perhaps confused
with the Canadian Pacific Railroad which had perhaps 2000 Chinese
casualties. There's a monument in Toronto.

We'll never know how many dies in Mao's "purges," perhaps hundreds of
thousands, This is peanuts compared to the death and suffering in the
"Great Leap Forward" where gross incompetence and mismanagement of
the economy by the communists starved an estimated 10-20 million
people.

I'm still not clear on how that relates to mistreatment of Chinese in
the late 1800's in the US. I certainly wouldn't say that it justifies
it, particularly being after the fact.

Sorry if I came off a little strong on that note - it's not correct to
say there were no descendents of the railroad workers,, but there were
certainly very few. The demographics of the migrant Chinese workers
(overwhelmingly male) and discriminatory laws (No naturalization, no
intermarriage and no bringing over relatives, fiances, wives, etc
over) made it highly unlikely. If you look at the census numbers,
the population of San Fran more than doubled from 1880 to 1920, while
the number of Chinese dropped by half. This trend is echoed
nationwide.

Yitah


On Thu, 25 Sep 2003 06:52:11 -0400, Mark Simpson
Post by Mark Simpson
Yitah,
Thanks for the history lesson, and I mean that sincerely. I guess
there's a lot that isn't found in history textbooks and I shouldn't have
assumed that those prospering in CA today were descendents of those that
came to build the RR. You do have to admit, though, that the hardships
under Mao still dwarfed anything that happened in the US during that
time period.
Good to see you're still enjoying the hobby. I don't think that either
of us have been to a HUVARS meeting in quite some time.
Tak care,
Mark Simpson
NAR 71503 Level II
God Bless our peacekeepers
y***@yahoo.com
2003-09-25 17:00:36 UTC
Permalink
Hate to burst anyones bubble, but everyone "steals" from everyone
else.

I work in automotive and as soon as a new model is introduced by a
competitor we buy a few and tear them down to see if there are any
ideas we can use. We call this "Benchmarking."

What about rocketry? Didn't the US "borrow some technology from some
other people? I guess we really didn't steal German technology if we
stole the Germans that came up with it. It's like how the US now has
the world's fastest marathon runner. That is, as of the guy
converting from Moroccan citizenship.

That said, I'm NOT a fan of Chinese tools, etc. etc. Unfortunately,
in this Wal-Mart society we live in, the average person is going to
choose on price, and quality is often second place. Don't think
they'll be there for very long either. Remember Hyundai?

Yitah



aOn Sat, 20 Sep 2003 00:47:11 GMT, "Arnold Roquerre"
If you knew your history, you would know that the U.S. in the 1700 and 1800
stole much technology and agricultural products from other countries.
England was one of our favorites. France came in second. Germany was next as
I recall. In addition, we recruited thousands of Chinese laborers by lying
to them and making promises we never had any intention of honoring. They
built much of the RRs that was essential for the country to grow. They died
by the thousands. The British Comet Jet designs helped our aviation. When
the Comets started crashing, the lessons learned by the British were taken
and incorporated into our commercial jets giving us a leg up on them.
All nations steal technology from each other just as everyone screws the
neighbor's wife - if she is pretty.
Post by a***@airmail.net
Gee, no wonder it's cheaper for the Chinese to do such things, they
just steal.
Quote from the Scientific American article.
The Chinese needed a suit with similar functions, so after obtaining
samples of the Sokol design they copied it exactly, right down to the
stitching and color scheme.
Note, not they licensed it, they subcontracted it, they just stole it.
Bob Kaplow
2003-09-25 17:27:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by y***@yahoo.com
That said, I'm NOT a fan of Chinese tools, etc. etc. Unfortunately,
in this Wal-Mart society we live in, the average person is going to
What ever happened to WalMarts buy / sell American policy?
Post by y***@yahoo.com
choose on price, and quality is often second place. Don't think
they'll be there for very long either. Remember Hyundai?
Hyundai is South Korean. Their lack of quality was only exceeded by Kia, and
then they bought them out. Sure they offer a 10 year warranty. No one wowuld
buy their junk without it. But runor has it that they are improving, just as
the Japanese did decades ago.

I've yet to see China enter the auto market.

Bob Kaplow NAR # 18L TRA # "Impeach the TRA BoD"
Post by y***@yahoo.com
To reply, remove the TRABoD! <<<
Kaplow Klips & Baffle: http://nira-rocketry.org/LeadingEdge/Phantom4000.pdf
www.encompasserve.org/~kaplow_r/ www.nira-rocketry.org www.nar.org

Save Model Rocketry from the HSA! http://www.space-rockets.com/congress.html
Doug Sams
2003-09-25 18:55:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bob Kaplow
I've yet to see China enter the auto market.
Oh, I can see it now: The Peoples' Motor Company's Rickshaw-400-LS.
It's based on an improved Renault Alliance with Bricklin enhancements,
and the ultra-reliable high-silicon-content aluminum engine block.
Plus, to control costs, it uses surplus door latch and window regualtor
parts from the Fiat X1/9. And Rucas erectric.

Yeah, Baby!

Doug
--
Posted via Mailgate.ORG Server - http://www.Mailgate.ORG
Mark Simpson
2003-09-25 10:59:14 UTC
Permalink
There are US "Big Three" companies making cars in China today. I know
because my company sells paint to them.

Mark Simpson
NAR 71503 Level II
God Bless our peacekeepers
Apparently, China is already in the automobile industry
http://www.automobilemag.com/news/news_12_1/index.html
Don
Post by Doug Sams
Post by Bob Kaplow
I've yet to see China enter the auto market.
Oh, I can see it now: The Peoples' Motor Company's Rickshaw-400-LS.
It's based on an improved Renault Alliance with Bricklin enhancements,
and the ultra-reliable high-silicon-content aluminum engine block.
Plus, to control costs, it uses surplus door latch and window regualtor
parts from the Fiat X1/9. And Rucas erectric.
Yeah, Baby!
Doug
Chuck Rudy
2003-09-25 23:53:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Doug Sams
Post by Bob Kaplow
I've yet to see China enter the auto market.
Oh, I can see it now: The Peoples' Motor Company's Rickshaw-400-LS.
It's based on an improved Renault Alliance with Bricklin enhancements,
Ahh Bricklin.......my father owned #708 white '74 four speed........neat
car, but poooooooorly built. After a person spent about 400hours and a
couple thousand bucks then you had something. When he first got the car
we pulled down the license plate to unlock the hatch and low and behold
they drilled the hole in the wrong spot for the keyhole, so they just
drilled another and got it right on the second try.......the Hurst
shifter was cut so short all that could be seen on it was
....ST........it had an AMC 360 with a GM carbeurator, Chrysler
transmission and Ford rear.......you couldn't drive it in the rain, not
because of the slow doors but because they leaked so bad they could have
been planters......but they did look cool
Post by Doug Sams
and the ultra-reliable high-silicon-content aluminum engine block.
Plus, to control costs, it uses surplus door latch and window regualtor
parts from the Fiat X1/9. And Rucas erectric.
Yeah, Baby!
Doug
--
Chuck Rudy

VooDoo Digital Productions

http://homepage.mac.com/wesrudy
Mark Simpson
2003-09-25 10:54:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bob Kaplow
Post by y***@yahoo.com
That said, I'm NOT a fan of Chinese tools, etc. etc. Unfortunately,
in this Wal-Mart society we live in, the average person is going to
What ever happened to WalMarts buy / sell American policy?
Post by y***@yahoo.com
choose on price, and quality is often second place. Don't think
they'll be there for very long either. Remember Hyundai?
Hyundai is South Korean. Their lack of quality was only exceeded by Kia, and
then they bought them out. Sure they offer a 10 year warranty. No one wowuld
buy their junk without it. But runor has it that they are improving, just as
the Japanese did decades ago.
I've yet to see China enter the auto market.
Have you ever driven a Hyundai, Bob? Just for grins, I rented one when I
had to make a trip down to Cleveland. It had good power, no squeaks,
tight interior, responsive engine and steering. I can't speak about
their longevity, but I was impressed enough to rent one again.

Mark Simpson
NAR 71503 Level II
God Bless our peacekeepers
Chris Taylor Jr
2003-09-26 04:01:00 UTC
Permalink
Grr I hope a 96 Plymouth Voyager does not fall into that class. I just got
one and I LOVE it so far. I actually FIT very well in this vehicle. no
complaints so far. I hope I fair better than you did. (fingers crossed) it
is look wise a VERY nice vehicle. I just hope it is also mechanically nice.

I got it to get OUT of money pits not to get into another one.

I put a LOT of miles on my vehicles (less than 20 days and already got
nearly 1500 miles on it)

already got a check engine light but its just a cat so no big deal. (pheew
was sweating for a bit their :-)

I have a lot of Modification plans for this vehicle to really spiff it up
but I am going to wait till I put 10k miles on it to see what I am in for on
the long haul (should take me 2-4 months at most to pull that off)

Chris Hoping I did not make a bad choice Taylor
http://www.nerys.com/
One of the vehicles that I replaced was a Grand Voyager. The most
worthless
piece of poop I've ever owned. When it was shafting us to the tune of
$4k/year in maintenance, we decided to ditch it.
h***@weinerboy.org
2003-09-26 12:40:23 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 26 Sep 2003 00:01:00 -0400, "Chris Taylor Jr"
Post by Chris Taylor Jr
Grr I hope a 96 Plymouth Voyager does not fall into that class. I just got
one and I LOVE it so far. I actually FIT very well in this vehicle. no
complaints so far. I hope I fair better than you did. (fingers crossed) it
is look wise a VERY nice vehicle. I just hope it is also mechanically nice.
I got it to get OUT of money pits not to get into another one.
I put a LOT of miles on my vehicles (less than 20 days and already got
nearly 1500 miles on it)
already got a check engine light but its just a cat so no big deal. (pheew
was sweating for a bit their :-)
Cat?

Gotta watch those, Chris. My grandmother's was dispatched in a most
gruesome way. It seems that kitty, looking for a nice warm place to
sleep in a cold garage, camped out on the aircleaner. Gram fired up
the car (some sort of an old AMC IIRC), and, um, kitty "hit the
fan"...

<g>

tah

--

Tod A. Hilty
Hilty Information Systems

Do not look in the direction of the flash...
Curl up in a ball as you hit the ground...

Please replace weinerboy dot org with adelphia dot net for reply.
Marcus Leech
2003-09-26 14:39:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chris Taylor Jr
Grr I hope a 96 Plymouth Voyager does not fall into that class. I just got
one and I LOVE it so far. I actually FIT very well in this vehicle. no
complaints so far. I hope I fair better than you did. (fingers crossed) it
is look wise a VERY nice vehicle. I just hope it is also mechanically nice.
Uhmmm. It was a 1996 Plymouth Voyager, Chris. I wish you luck :-(
Bob Kaplow
2003-09-26 16:42:59 UTC
Permalink
The only thing to remember about the Voyager and Caravans is that you MUST
keep up with the scheduled maintenance. On that vehicle it includes replacing
the transmission every 35,000 miles.
Gee, my Crapavan only averaged 21K MTTF. You're doing pretty good.

Bob Kaplow NAR # 18L TRA # "Impeach the TRA BoD"
To reply, remove the TRABoD! <<<
Kaplow Klips & Baffle: http://nira-rocketry.org/LeadingEdge/Phantom4000.pdf
www.encompasserve.org/~kaplow_r/ www.nira-rocketry.org www.nar.org

Save Model Rocketry from the HSA! http://www.space-rockets.com/congress.html
Chris Taylor Jr
2003-09-26 17:02:12 UTC
Permalink
GRrrrrrrrrrrrr. Hopefully I will fair better. Grrrrr

Chris Taylor
http://www.nerys.com/
Post by Marcus Leech
Post by Chris Taylor Jr
Grr I hope a 96 Plymouth Voyager does not fall into that class. I just got
one and I LOVE it so far. I actually FIT very well in this vehicle. no
complaints so far. I hope I fair better than you did. (fingers crossed) it
is look wise a VERY nice vehicle. I just hope it is also mechanically nice.
Uhmmm. It was a 1996 Plymouth Voyager, Chris. I wish you luck :-(
Chris Taylor Jr
2003-09-26 17:03:13 UTC
Permalink
? that transmission in it has 151,000 miles on it and still tight ? (Engine
has 44,000)

Please Oh Please I hope I fair better. I really like it and the ride is
simply amazing. almsot as smooth as my dad's town car.

Chris Taylor
http://www.nerys.com/
The only thing to remember about the Voyager and Caravans is that you MUST
keep up with the scheduled maintenance. On that vehicle it includes
replacing
the transmission every 35,000 miles.
Post by Marcus Leech
Post by Chris Taylor Jr
Grr I hope a 96 Plymouth Voyager does not fall into that class. I just got
one and I LOVE it so far. I actually FIT very well in this vehicle. no
complaints so far. I hope I fair better than you did. (fingers crossed) it
is look wise a VERY nice vehicle. I just hope it is also mechanically nice.
Uhmmm. It was a 1996 Plymouth Voyager, Chris. I wish you luck :-(
--
Alex Mericas
Bob Kaplow
2003-09-26 16:40:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chris Taylor Jr
Grr I hope a 96 Plymouth Voyager does not fall into that class. I just got
one and I LOVE it so far. I actually FIT very well in this vehicle. no
complaints so far. I hope I fair better than you did. (fingers crossed) it
is look wise a VERY nice vehicle. I just hope it is also mechanically nice.
They do. Check the recall list. My Crapavan was up to 10 when I dumped it. 2
were for safety problems I'd already encoutered that cost me big bux. One
the dealer refused to fix under the recall until I started making phone
calls to the NHTSC
Post by Chris Taylor Jr
I got it to get OUT of money pits not to get into another one.
Too bad.
Post by Chris Taylor Jr
I put a LOT of miles on my vehicles (less than 20 days and already got
nearly 1500 miles on it)
I do 80 miles a day just to and from work.

Bob Kaplow NAR # 18L TRA # "Impeach the TRA BoD"
Post by Chris Taylor Jr
To reply, remove the TRABoD! <<<
Kaplow Klips & Baffle: http://nira-rocketry.org/LeadingEdge/Phantom4000.pdf
www.encompasserve.org/~kaplow_r/ www.nira-rocketry.org www.nar.org

Save Model Rocketry from the HSA! http://www.space-rockets.com/congress.html
Mark Simpson
2003-09-26 19:49:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chris Taylor Jr
Grr I hope a 96 Plymouth Voyager does not fall into that class. I just got
one and I LOVE it so far. I actually FIT very well in this vehicle. no
complaints so far. I hope I fair better than you did. (fingers crossed) it
is look wise a VERY nice vehicle. I just hope it is also mechanically nice.
I got it to get OUT of money pits not to get into another one.
I put a LOT of miles on my vehicles (less than 20 days and already got
nearly 1500 miles on it)
already got a check engine light but its just a cat so no big deal. (pheew
was sweating for a bit their :-)
I have a lot of Modification plans for this vehicle to really spiff it up
but I am going to wait till I put 10k miles on it to see what I am in for on
the long haul (should take me 2-4 months at most to pull that off)
Chris Hoping I did not make a bad choice Taylor
Chris,
I've had 3 Chrysler minivans over the past 6 years. I can tell you
from experience that I will NEVER buy one. All three were leased with
the hope that the transmission would fall out AFTER I turned it in. I
miscalculated once (1997 Grand Caravan with 20k miles on it and under
warranty, thank God) and the jury's out on my 2003 T&C. ;-)

Mark Simpson
NAR 71503 Level II
God Bless our peacekeepers
David Erbas-White
2003-09-26 21:01:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark Simpson
Chris,
I've had 3 Chrysler minivans over the past 6 years. I can tell you
from experience that I will NEVER buy one. All three were leased with
the hope that the transmission would fall out AFTER I turned it in. I
miscalculated once (1997 Grand Caravan with 20k miles on it and under
warranty, thank God) and the jury's out on my 2003 T&C. ;-)
Slow learner, Mark?

<G>

David Erbas-White
Bob Kaplow
2003-09-26 21:28:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Erbas-White
Post by Mark Simpson
I've had 3 Chrysler minivans over the past 6 years. I can tell you
from experience that I will NEVER buy one. All three were leased with
the hope that the transmission would fall out AFTER I turned it in. I
miscalculated once (1997 Grand Caravan with 20k miles on it and under
warranty, thank God) and the jury's out on my 2003 T&C. ;-)
Slow learner, Mark?
It only took me 2 crapavans to learn to stay away from Chrysler. And the
first one got trashed by a drunk driver, so I never really got to the point
where everything started failing before replacing a 1987 with a 1991. The 87
had the 2.6L 4-cylinder, and was grossly under powered. Makes you wonder
about the 2.2L version they sold. The 91 had a much better V6, but 5 major
transmission failures, one major ABS failure, and TEN recalls while I had
it...

Bob Kaplow NAR # 18L TRA # "Impeach the TRA BoD"
Post by David Erbas-White
Post by Mark Simpson
To reply, remove the TRABoD! <<<
Kaplow Klips & Baffle: http://nira-rocketry.org/LeadingEdge/Phantom4000.pdf
www.encompasserve.org/~kaplow_r/ www.nira-rocketry.org www.nar.org

Save Model Rocketry from the HSA! http://www.space-rockets.com/congress.html
Jerry Irvine
2003-09-26 22:33:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bob Kaplow
The 91 had a much better V6, but 5 major
transmission failures, one major ABS failure, and TEN recalls while I had
it...
You're just lucky Bob :)
Post by Bob Kaplow
Save Model Rocketry from the HSA!
http://www.space-rockets.com/congress.html
--
Jerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA
Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to:***@gte.net>
Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration.
Produce then publish. http://www.usrockets.com
My articles valuable? Donate at iKobo.com c/o my email.
Mark Simpson
2003-09-26 15:19:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Erbas-White
Post by Mark Simpson
Chris,
I've had 3 Chrysler minivans over the past 6 years. I can tell you
from experience that I will NEVER buy one. All three were leased with
the hope that the transmission would fall out AFTER I turned it in. I
miscalculated once (1997 Grand Caravan with 20k miles on it and under
warranty, thank God) and the jury's out on my 2003 T&C. ;-)
Slow learner, Mark?
<G>
David Erbas-White
Not at all, why do you think I only lease them? My wife and I both
agree that Chrysler minivans have the best ride of any minivan, so
that's why we lease them...along with the fact that they give us great
deals and big loyalty bonuses.

Mark Simpson
NAR 71503 Level II
God Bless our peacekeepers
Mark Simpson
2003-09-26 15:23:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark Simpson
I've had 3 Chrysler minivans over the past 6 years. I can tell you
from experience that I will NEVER buy one. All three were leased with
the hope that the transmission would fall out AFTER I turned it in. I
miscalculated once (1997 Grand Caravan with 20k miles on it and under
warranty, thank God) and the jury's out on my 2003 T&C. ;-)
Going even further off topic on an off topic thread...
What's the advantage to leasing a car anyway? Do you have some heavy
business use, or get favorable lease terms as part of your job?
I did read a comment somewhere that you should ask your accountant if there
was any advantage to leasing vs buying. And they then said that if you
didn't have an account then there was NO advantage to leasing.
We lease at least one vehicle in our fleet so that we are guaranteed to
have a vehicle that we'd have no qualms taking on a long trip. I'm not
good about routine maintenance, other than getting oil changes and I
don't like surprises. Now, that being said, we have 5 vehicles that we
own and one lease at the moment.

Mark Simpson
NAR 71503 Level II
God Bless our peacekeepers

Mike Pearson <see .sig>
2003-09-26 05:34:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark Simpson
Have you ever driven a Hyundai, Bob? Just for grins, I rented one when I
had to make a trip down to Cleveland. It had good power, no squeaks,
tight interior, responsive engine and steering. I can't speak about
their longevity, but I was impressed enough to rent one again.
My wife had a Hyundai Excel when I met her. We traded it in (OK...we
got $100 for it, but at least they took it with the bashed in driver's
door, one bumper blue with the rest of the car red, and a few other
glitches) at the 10-year mark with 220,000+ miles on it. It was buring
a bit of oil by then, and we had to carry spare plugs all the time for
when we'd foul one, but it was still actually going pretty strong.
--
Mike KD7PVT
NAR #70953 - Sr/HPR Level-1 ~ SeaNAR - The Seattle NAR Section #568
NO Junk Email, please! Real email to: amphoto [at] blarg [dot] net.
<Vegetables aren't food; vegetables are what the food eats!>
Chuck Rudy
2003-09-26 11:42:09 UTC
Permalink
One of the vehicles that I replaced was a Grand Voyager. The most worthless
piece of poop I've ever owned. When it was shafting us to the tune of
$4k/year in maintenance, we decided to ditch it.
The other vehicle was a Sunbird with the notorious 3.1L engine. The engine
threw a rod at 90,000Km. That was with meticulous and regular maintenance,
oil changes, and conservative driving. Cost me $2200 to get a replacement
engine.
I made the mistake of listening to the little
wo........errr.......ah....the wife as she wanted to trade in the old
Aerostar with only 275K on it.......I have the Chebbie Cavalier and it's
going fine with 127K, oil changes and brakes so far...the only foreign
car I've messed with was a VW Rabbit Diesel, she wanted something new
after 307K, so I sold it to a kid who had a hot car he couldn't drive in
the winter and I see it from time to time, it's still going 8 years
later. I figure cars are a crap shoot, since the neighbor had a Mazda
pickup in which the second replacement engine lasted at total of 2.000
miles, they all put out a bad car from time to time....but anytime we
take a trip north it's not an 'official' trip until we see a dead
Cherokee on the side of the road :-( , that dubious distinction used
to belong to the Ford Taurus and their rubber band transmissions
--
Chuck Rudy

VooDoo Digital Productions

http://homepage.mac.com/wesrudy
moonglow
2003-09-26 15:32:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chuck Rudy
One of the vehicles that I replaced was a Grand Voyager. The most worthless
piece of poop I've ever owned. When it was shafting us to the tune of
$4k/year in maintenance, we decided to ditch it.
The other vehicle was a Sunbird with the notorious 3.1L engine. The engine
threw a rod at 90,000Km. That was with meticulous and regular maintenance,
oil changes, and conservative driving. Cost me $2200 to get a replacement
engine.
I made the mistake of listening to the little
wo........errr.......ah....the wife as she wanted to trade in the old
Aerostar with only 275K on it.......I have the Chebbie Cavalier and it's
going fine with 127K, oil changes and brakes so far...the only foreign
car I've messed with was a VW Rabbit Diesel, she wanted something new
after 307K, so I sold it to a kid who had a hot car he couldn't drive in
the winter and I see it from time to time, it's still going 8 years
later. I figure cars are a crap shoot, since the neighbor had a Mazda
pickup in which the second replacement engine lasted at total of 2.000
miles, they all put out a bad car from time to time....but anytime we
take a trip north it's not an 'official' trip until we see a dead
Cherokee on the side of the road :-( , that dubious distinction used
to belong to the Ford Taurus and their rubber band transmissions
Curious on that Mazda truck...what year was it? Was it Ford/Mazda or a
Mazda? The reason I ask is I bought a new 1990 Mazda truck in '90 and
in 7 years ran up 220k miles on it with no problems. A buddy of mine
bought one of the Ford/Mazda trucks with a V6 and pretty much always had
motor troubles. Pretty much all my vehicles have reached the 200k club
and my current ride is a '89 camry that's just about to hit the 200k.

My dad bought a new 928 in '82 and since then he has run up the miles
big time on it; 450k! My dad's buddy used to be a Porsche race mechanic
and did all the maintenance on it since new. The car mechanically is
pristine and still fast after all these years. Could use a respray on
the front though.

Ted Novak
TRA#5512
Chuck Rudy
2003-09-26 22:28:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by moonglow
Post by Chuck Rudy
I figure cars are a crap shoot, since the neighbor had a Mazda
pickup in which the second replacement engine lasted at total of
2.000 miles, they all put out a bad car from time to time....but
anytime we take a trip north it's not an 'official' trip until we see
a dead Cherokee on the side of the road :-( , that dubious
distinction used to belong to the Ford Taurus and their rubber band
transmissions
Curious on that Mazda truck...what year was it? Was it Ford/Mazda or
a Mazda? The reason I ask is I bought a new 1990 Mazda truck in '90
and in 7 years ran up 220k miles on it with no problems. A buddy of
mine bought one of the Ford/Mazda trucks with a V6 and pretty much
always had motor troubles. Pretty much all my vehicles have reached
the 200k club and my current ride is a '89 camry that's just about to
hit the 200k.
It was a brand new, in 1995 Mazda pickup.....I have no idea who built
anything on it, but I seem to recall it didn't have a double wall pickup
bed, so he wouldn't haul anything that would dent the outside from the
inside.... :-D

Our last trip I didn't see a Cherokee on the side of the road, but I did
see one doing 15 mph, blinkers on, on I-81 with smoke pouring out of all
the windows, so I figured it would eventually be on the side as the exit
was 4 miles away...... it wasn't a confirmed, but it was deemed an
'official' trip.
--
Chuck Rudy

VooDoo Digital Productions

http://homepage.mac.com/wesrudy
Chris Taylor Jr
2003-09-26 17:06:25 UTC
Permalink
Very sad. Most likely a cherokee abused and not cared for.

Chris Taylor
http://www.nerys.com/
Post by Chuck Rudy
I made the mistake of listening to the little
wo........errr.......ah....the wife as she wanted to trade in the old
Aerostar with only 275K on it.......I have the Chebbie Cavalier and it's
going fine with 127K, oil changes and brakes so far...the only foreign
car I've messed with was a VW Rabbit Diesel, she wanted something new
after 307K, so I sold it to a kid who had a hot car he couldn't drive in
the winter and I see it from time to time, it's still going 8 years
later. I figure cars are a crap shoot, since the neighbor had a Mazda
pickup in which the second replacement engine lasted at total of 2.000
miles, they all put out a bad car from time to time....but anytime we
take a trip north it's not an 'official' trip until we see a dead
Cherokee on the side of the road :-( , that dubious distinction used
to belong to the Ford Taurus and their rubber band transmissions
--
Chuck Rudy
VooDoo Digital Productions
http://homepage.mac.com/wesrudy
Bob Kaplow
2003-09-26 16:36:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark Simpson
Have you ever driven a Hyundai, Bob? Just for grins, I rented one when I
had to make a trip down to Cleveland. It had good power, no squeaks,
tight interior, responsive engine and steering. I can't speak about
their longevity, but I was impressed enough to rent one again.
Hundai? Not driven, but been driven in by colleagues. Not impressed.

Kia? Had one as a rental for a week when my Crapavan was getting one of its
transmission repairs. Cheapest thing Enterprise offered. Worst POS I'd ever
been in. WAY worse than the old AMC Gremlin. The car was totally unstable
manuvering at highway speeds. I was terrified every time I had to take the
thing on the highways.

Bob Kaplow NAR # 18L TRA # "Impeach the TRA BoD"
Post by Mark Simpson
To reply, remove the TRABoD! <<<
Kaplow Klips & Baffle: http://nira-rocketry.org/LeadingEdge/Phantom4000.pdf
www.encompasserve.org/~kaplow_r/ www.nira-rocketry.org www.nar.org

Save Model Rocketry from the HSA! http://www.space-rockets.com/congress.html
Chuck Rudy
2003-09-26 22:22:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bob Kaplow
Kia? Had one as a rental for a week when my Crapavan was getting one of its
transmission repairs. Cheapest thing Enterprise offered. Worst POS I'd ever
been in. WAY worse than the old AMC Gremlin.
Whoa! Worse than the Gremlin?!? Worse looking or worse mechanically?
;-)
--
Chuck Rudy

VooDoo Digital Productions

http://homepage.mac.com/wesrudy
Bob Kaplow
2003-09-26 23:50:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chuck Rudy
Post by Bob Kaplow
Kia? Had one as a rental for a week when my Crapavan was getting one of its
transmission repairs. Cheapest thing Enterprise offered. Worst POS I'd ever
been in. WAY worse than the old AMC Gremlin.
Whoa! Worse than the Gremlin?!? Worse looking or worse mechanically?
Worse handling. I always thought the Gremlin looked a lot like the VW
Rabbit/Golf, and I liked my Rabbit. Except for its valve guides... It's
still the best winter snow & ice car I've ever owned, even though back then
no one had ABS or traction control. But it was a high maintenance vehicle.

My cousin had a Gremlin. I liked their looks and wanted one, until one day I
got a ride in hers. Rode like a truck. Sounded like a truck.

But that KIA rental was the pits. All four tires looked like my temporary
spare. The thing handled so bad I thought I was going to flip the thing when
doing a simple lane change at 55. I was white knuckled the whole time I had
it on the highway, driving 40 miles each way to/from work for a week. Was
afraid to get it up to the speed of the rest of the traffic, which is
usually 75-80 when not blocked by road destruction or rubberneckers.

Bob Kaplow NAR # 18L TRA # "Impeach the TRA BoD"
Post by Chuck Rudy
Post by Bob Kaplow
To reply, remove the TRABoD! <<<
Kaplow Klips & Baffle: http://nira-rocketry.org/LeadingEdge/Phantom4000.pdf
www.encompasserve.org/~kaplow_r/ www.nira-rocketry.org www.nar.org

Save Model Rocketry from the HSA! http://www.space-rockets.com/congress.html
Christopher Deem
2003-09-27 01:04:51 UTC
Permalink
Bob, the rest of us are terrified anytime you take ANY car on the highway
;-)

--
Christopher Brian Deem NAR 12308 TRA 2256 Level II
Post by Bob Kaplow
Post by Mark Simpson
Have you ever driven a Hyundai, Bob? Just for grins, I rented one when I
had to make a trip down to Cleveland. It had good power, no squeaks,
tight interior, responsive engine and steering. I can't speak about
their longevity, but I was impressed enough to rent one again.
Hundai? Not driven, but been driven in by colleagues. Not impressed.
Kia? Had one as a rental for a week when my Crapavan was getting one of its
transmission repairs. Cheapest thing Enterprise offered. Worst POS I'd ever
been in. WAY worse than the old AMC Gremlin. The car was totally unstable
manuvering at highway speeds. I was terrified every time I had to take the
thing on the highways.
Bob Kaplow NAR # 18L TRA # "Impeach the TRA BoD"
Post by Mark Simpson
To reply, remove the TRABoD! <<<
http://nira-rocketry.org/LeadingEdge/Phantom4000.pdf
Post by Bob Kaplow
www.encompasserve.org/~kaplow_r/ www.nira-rocketry.org
www.nar.org
Post by Bob Kaplow
Save Model Rocketry from the HSA!
http://www.space-rockets.com/congress.html
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